Votes for deletion/Images of Saddam Hussein
'''I count 6 delete, 4 keep and 1 no vote.''' Alltel ringtones User:Rossami/Rossami (updated by Pixies Pillows User:Sj/+sj)
:It doesn't seem you counted my vote, then. ''from Samsung ringtones User:Anthony DiPierro/anthony''
::Comment: Actually, I interpreted your vote as delete since the discussion on the related talk pages did not seem to favor merging and since a redirect would create a circular link. Furthermore, since deleting the page does not affect the underlying images, no GFDL history is lost. Honeys Buns WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe was the "no vote" in my tentative count. If I interpreted your vote incorrectly, please clarify it. In either case, as I said in the edit summaries, I've now voted in this particularly contentious debate and have recused myself from making the decision. Real ringtones User:Rossami/Rossami 02:29, 18 Aug 2004
:OK, I must have miscounted something else then. Go Go Gidget Anthony DiPierro/anthony Virgin mobile ringtones User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 11:24, 18 Aug 2004
I moved the page to Melody Melons List of images/People/Saddam Hussein and removed the fair use images, since it is against the policy on Tracfone ringtones List of images. Kelli Young 172/172 reverted me a couple times, even removing ? I still stand by this listing and the copyvio listing, because this is about what Cingular Ringtones Wikipedia is not/Wikipedia is not and the terms of the GFDL. associations new User:Guanaco/Guanclinton rosenthal User talk:Guanaco/aco 00:02, Jul 27, 2004
**::If you can show that the images were first published in Iraq, yes, they'd be PD-US. I don't understand your point on the terms of the GFDL. A list of 5 or 6 links is not copyrightable. I've asked on your talk page for you to explain it to me, though. can keep Anthony DiPierro/anthony build business User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 00:52, 27 Jul 2004
*Keep. This page is different from the page at List of images, which only lists Public Domain images. Thus this gallery is quite necessary, as it lists images which are not in the main Saddam Hussein article, which would otherwise be lost. Guanaco is on a nasty crusade to remove all non Public Domain-only images from the face of Wikipedia. llodra threatened Cantus/Cantus 09:27, Jul 26, 2004
*:famous naval List of images lists more than just public domain images. I don't think it's very fair for you to accuse me of being "on a nasty crusade".
* Delete. I agree with Andrewa. This is a gallery of images. No matter the fair use/public domain debate, it doesn't matter, as this page is invalid. intersecting at Lyellin/Lyellin 14:04, Jul 26, 2004
*Merge with Saddam Hussein and redirect. Alternatively, delete. Please don't create a cross namespace redirect. We should be doing so only with extreme caution. single martyr Anthony DiPierro/anthony for roe User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 23:47, 26 Jul 2004
*The main reason this was created was because 172 was objecting to having a huge amount of pictures in the Saddam Hussein article. nvoluntary servitude WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 03:53, 27 Jul 2004
**Creating an article which violates what Wikipedia is not is not a valid solution to an article dispute. If we added a significant amount of text about the images (the images themselves, not what is depicted in them), this would become a legitimate article, though. harshest words Anthony DiPierro/anthony proactive by User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 10:15, 27 Jul 2004
*Keep. How is this different than handbooks might images of sheep or golf for gallery of flags? Images of sheep is even mentioned on mastio says Image use policy as an example of a way to use images. england resumed Nikola Smolenski/Nikola 15:33, 27 Jul 2004
**Comment: Good points. sam rouhani Gallery of flags (which is actually a redirect to quechua culture Gallery of national flags BTW) is a different issue IMO, in that the article presents encyclopedic information in a purely graphical form. abrams is Images of sheep is a bit more complex, and currently also redirects to concerts throughout List of images/Nature/Animals/Sheep. The List of images project is in the project namespace, not the article, so there's a bit more leeway as to content. I was leaving the question as to whether this is itself valid until we decide on this page, because IMO if we keep this page, the image lists project clearly stays too. If we keep any of them, then IMO we need to change the image policy because Wikipedia '''will''' then include a gallery of images. No change of vote. Andrewa/Andrewa 21:23, 27 Jul 2004
***List of images is a valuable project, and as you said it's not in the article namespace, but it serves different purpose: collecting of free images; if I understand it well, for example, it might even include images of non-notable people or places, if they are free. Now, Images of Saddam Hussein is in article namespace and has a different goal: illustrating the article about Saddam Hussein. The images are various, depict Saddam in various ways (Saddam in civillian clothing, in uniform, in propaganda, on a banknote...), perhaps one or two of them are redudant, but the bulk add to readers' knowledge about Saddam. Someone who reads article on sheep, has never seen a sheep and wants to know how a sheep looks like, should be presented with various images of sheep: ewe, ram, lamb, a flock of sheep, white sheep, black sheep, white and black sheep, various sheep races, depictions of sheep in art. Such images add vastly to his or hers knowledge on sheep even if not accompanied with a lot of text. Saddam is no different.
***I have Opća Enciklopedija, an encyclopedia published in Yugoslavia; as examples, article about mushrooms has two pages of color pictures showing edible, unedible and poisonous mushrooms; article about illumination (art of beautifying handwritten books) is actually a three-sentence stub, but has a color page showing various illuminations, in addition to four black&white illustrations near the article itself; article about Greeks has two b&w pages showing Greek art; article about renaissance has two b&w pages showing renaissance architecture and art. Apparently, encyclopedias do have such a contents.
***To sum all of this: IMO, both pages should stay. List of images/People/Saddam Hussein should contain free images of Saddam Hussein, for the purpose of having free images of Saddam Hussein at one place so that they could be easily found and used wherever needed. Images of Saddam Hussein should contain characteristical not-neccesarily-free images of Saddam Hussein for the purpose of informing readers of Saddam Hussein article how does Saddam Hussein looks like without cluttering the article. Nikola Smolenski/Nikola 06:53, 28 Jul 2004
* Delete this article - What Wikipedia is not item 19. Pictures should add to the article, not be the article. Note that deleting the article will not delete the underlying images. They are still available to anyone who wants to use them in an article that meets the standards. If you're that worried about losing track of them, I suggest creating a list of links (but not a gallery) on the main article's Talk page. Rossami/Rossami 03:03, 12 Aug 2004
**This is actually not an article, but a subarticle of Saddam Hussein. Like Transportation in Russia vs Russia or Demographic history of Montenegro vs Montenegro. Each of these articles would probably be deleted without their main articles. Nikola Smolenski/Nikola 17:27, 12 Aug 2004
**:If those main articles did not exist, Transportation in Russia etc. would be moved to Russia etc. Guanaco/GuanUser talk:Guanaco/aco 21:33, Aug 12, 2004
* '''Keep'''/move. VfD is not a place for working out policy disputes. No suitable alternative page been proposed for this full list of images; please work out where, if anywhere, this page should move to, on the article Talk page (perhaps Saddam Hussein/Images?). Sj/+sjUser Talk:Sj/+ 02:10, 18 Aug 2004
:It doesn't seem you counted my vote, then. ''from Samsung ringtones User:Anthony DiPierro/anthony''
::Comment: Actually, I interpreted your vote as delete since the discussion on the related talk pages did not seem to favor merging and since a redirect would create a circular link. Furthermore, since deleting the page does not affect the underlying images, no GFDL history is lost. Honeys Buns WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe was the "no vote" in my tentative count. If I interpreted your vote incorrectly, please clarify it. In either case, as I said in the edit summaries, I've now voted in this particularly contentious debate and have recused myself from making the decision. Real ringtones User:Rossami/Rossami 02:29, 18 Aug 2004
:OK, I must have miscounted something else then. Go Go Gidget Anthony DiPierro/anthony Virgin mobile ringtones User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 11:24, 18 Aug 2004
I moved the page to Melody Melons List of images/People/Saddam Hussein and removed the fair use images, since it is against the policy on Tracfone ringtones List of images. Kelli Young 172/172 reverted me a couple times, even removing ? I still stand by this listing and the copyvio listing, because this is about what Cingular Ringtones Wikipedia is not/Wikipedia is not and the terms of the GFDL. associations new User:Guanaco/Guanclinton rosenthal User talk:Guanaco/aco 00:02, Jul 27, 2004
**::If you can show that the images were first published in Iraq, yes, they'd be PD-US. I don't understand your point on the terms of the GFDL. A list of 5 or 6 links is not copyrightable. I've asked on your talk page for you to explain it to me, though. can keep Anthony DiPierro/anthony build business User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 00:52, 27 Jul 2004
*Keep. This page is different from the page at List of images, which only lists Public Domain images. Thus this gallery is quite necessary, as it lists images which are not in the main Saddam Hussein article, which would otherwise be lost. Guanaco is on a nasty crusade to remove all non Public Domain-only images from the face of Wikipedia. llodra threatened Cantus/Cantus 09:27, Jul 26, 2004
*:famous naval List of images lists more than just public domain images. I don't think it's very fair for you to accuse me of being "on a nasty crusade".
* Delete. I agree with Andrewa. This is a gallery of images. No matter the fair use/public domain debate, it doesn't matter, as this page is invalid. intersecting at Lyellin/Lyellin 14:04, Jul 26, 2004
*Merge with Saddam Hussein and redirect. Alternatively, delete. Please don't create a cross namespace redirect. We should be doing so only with extreme caution. single martyr Anthony DiPierro/anthony for roe User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 23:47, 26 Jul 2004
*The main reason this was created was because 172 was objecting to having a huge amount of pictures in the Saddam Hussein article. nvoluntary servitude WhisperToMe/WhisperToMe 03:53, 27 Jul 2004
**Creating an article which violates what Wikipedia is not is not a valid solution to an article dispute. If we added a significant amount of text about the images (the images themselves, not what is depicted in them), this would become a legitimate article, though. harshest words Anthony DiPierro/anthony proactive by User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning/(see warning) 10:15, 27 Jul 2004
*Keep. How is this different than handbooks might images of sheep or golf for gallery of flags? Images of sheep is even mentioned on mastio says Image use policy as an example of a way to use images. england resumed Nikola Smolenski/Nikola 15:33, 27 Jul 2004
**Comment: Good points. sam rouhani Gallery of flags (which is actually a redirect to quechua culture Gallery of national flags BTW) is a different issue IMO, in that the article presents encyclopedic information in a purely graphical form. abrams is Images of sheep is a bit more complex, and currently also redirects to concerts throughout List of images/Nature/Animals/Sheep. The List of images project is in the project namespace, not the article, so there's a bit more leeway as to content. I was leaving the question as to whether this is itself valid until we decide on this page, because IMO if we keep this page, the image lists project clearly stays too. If we keep any of them, then IMO we need to change the image policy because Wikipedia '''will''' then include a gallery of images. No change of vote. Andrewa/Andrewa 21:23, 27 Jul 2004
***List of images is a valuable project, and as you said it's not in the article namespace, but it serves different purpose: collecting of free images; if I understand it well, for example, it might even include images of non-notable people or places, if they are free. Now, Images of Saddam Hussein is in article namespace and has a different goal: illustrating the article about Saddam Hussein. The images are various, depict Saddam in various ways (Saddam in civillian clothing, in uniform, in propaganda, on a banknote...), perhaps one or two of them are redudant, but the bulk add to readers' knowledge about Saddam. Someone who reads article on sheep, has never seen a sheep and wants to know how a sheep looks like, should be presented with various images of sheep: ewe, ram, lamb, a flock of sheep, white sheep, black sheep, white and black sheep, various sheep races, depictions of sheep in art. Such images add vastly to his or hers knowledge on sheep even if not accompanied with a lot of text. Saddam is no different.
***I have Opća Enciklopedija, an encyclopedia published in Yugoslavia; as examples, article about mushrooms has two pages of color pictures showing edible, unedible and poisonous mushrooms; article about illumination (art of beautifying handwritten books) is actually a three-sentence stub, but has a color page showing various illuminations, in addition to four black&white illustrations near the article itself; article about Greeks has two b&w pages showing Greek art; article about renaissance has two b&w pages showing renaissance architecture and art. Apparently, encyclopedias do have such a contents.
***To sum all of this: IMO, both pages should stay. List of images/People/Saddam Hussein should contain free images of Saddam Hussein, for the purpose of having free images of Saddam Hussein at one place so that they could be easily found and used wherever needed. Images of Saddam Hussein should contain characteristical not-neccesarily-free images of Saddam Hussein for the purpose of informing readers of Saddam Hussein article how does Saddam Hussein looks like without cluttering the article. Nikola Smolenski/Nikola 06:53, 28 Jul 2004
* Delete this article - What Wikipedia is not item 19. Pictures should add to the article, not be the article. Note that deleting the article will not delete the underlying images. They are still available to anyone who wants to use them in an article that meets the standards. If you're that worried about losing track of them, I suggest creating a list of links (but not a gallery) on the main article's Talk page. Rossami/Rossami 03:03, 12 Aug 2004
**This is actually not an article, but a subarticle of Saddam Hussein. Like Transportation in Russia vs Russia or Demographic history of Montenegro vs Montenegro. Each of these articles would probably be deleted without their main articles. Nikola Smolenski/Nikola 17:27, 12 Aug 2004
**:If those main articles did not exist, Transportation in Russia etc. would be moved to Russia etc. Guanaco/GuanUser talk:Guanaco/aco 21:33, Aug 12, 2004
* '''Keep'''/move. VfD is not a place for working out policy disputes. No suitable alternative page been proposed for this full list of images; please work out where, if anywhere, this page should move to, on the article Talk page (perhaps Saddam Hussein/Images?). Sj/+sjUser Talk:Sj/+ 02:10, 18 Aug 2004
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